How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

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CHWolff
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#26 Post by CHWolff » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:26 pm

It's a tough deal all around. Bush 41 was committed to tackling it as a World leader but something flipped in the GOP after him. I suppose it was the religious right taking hold during Clinton's presidency who used it as a call to the faithful. It became a keystone of the GOP to deny it and an wedge issue they could use to identify loyalty to the right wing cause. I think we're pretty well fucked for now. Hopefully we can mitigate some of the worst of the possibilities if we get serious about it.

Anyway, FWIW I'd say keep talking about it. Go ahead and lose respect for the deniers, lose friendships too. It's a shame but the state of affairs today means that we're seeing a side of our friends and family we never thought possible and it's horrifying.

One thing that may help though is this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ene ... d053b4cca2

Start from here, invoke Ronnie and Bush 41 along with the DOD info. above and they at least are on the horns of a dilemma. Might give them something to think about even if they won't admit it to you

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#27 Post by K9s » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:20 pm

featureless wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:57 pm
eelj wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:52 pm
Just to set peoples minds at ease. Do not worry about climate change destroying the world as we know it. I'm quite confident that with the kind of human garbage running the world that it will be destroyed from catastrophic global warfare long before climate change has a chance to.
A true optimist!
In my glass-half-empty view: I think that the destruction of our healthcare and education systems, the pollution spewed into the air and water for decades, and all the overdoses and suicides currently ravaging our country will kill more of us than climate change. Then wars, food shortages, water scarcity, and climate change will finish off the survivors.

:D
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#28 Post by CDFingers » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:39 am

lurker wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:52 pm
i don't know how you guys do it. deal with all this BS, that is.i can't seem to get away from it, it's 24 and seven. between the normal BS of everyday life and constant exposure to our idiot-in-chief's BS it's no wonder i can't seem to get my blood pressure under control. and yet, some of you seem to thrive on it, like a fish in the sea, not even aware of the water. i want to go live in a cave on a mountaintop.
Despair not.
This month, for the first time ever, the renewable energy sector (hydro, biomass, wind, solar and geothermal) is projected to generate more electricity than coal-fired plants, which totals about 240 gigawatts (GW) of still-operating capacity. According to data published this month in the Energy Information Administration (EIA) Short-Term Energy Outlook, renewables may even trump coal through the month of May as well.
--snup--
Of particular note, is the long-held practice of taking coal plants offline during the lower demand periods of the spring (and fall) to perform maintenance and upgrades to ensure that they are ready for the higher demand of the summer and winter seasons. In addition, spring tends to be peak time for hydro generation.

That said, this represents a momentous development driven by the deep transition under way in the electric generation arena. It is also likely, particularly given IEEFA’s forecasts for continued declines in the amount of installed coal-fired capacity, and steady increases in the amount of installed solar and wind generation, that renewable output will begin outpacing coal more and more frequently—just as occurred with natural gas (see IEEFA’s recent research, Record Drop in U.S. Coal-Fired Capacity Likely in 2018, and, for a broader overview, Coal Outlook 2019: Domestic Market Decline Continues).

It is worth noting that the first instance of natural gas-fired generation exceeding coal’s output happened not so long ago—April 2015 (also likely to do with seasonal variations in demand). Subsequently, the two major fossil fuels—coal and gas—went back and forth on market share through early 2018, with coal generating more in the winters and natural gas winning the summer generation battle (see chart below). The final monthly crossover point occurred in January 2018, and natural gas has held the uncontested top spot in electricity generation ever since. On an annual basis, the two fuels each accounted for about 33% of the electricity market in 2015; since then, their trajectories have taken different paths. By 2018, natural gas’s share had climbed to 35% while coal’s had dropped to 27%. The trends for both are expected to continue.
Graphs and mas:

http://ieefa.org/ieefa-u-s-april-is-sha ... enewables/

Outside of despair, the only other viable alternative is to continue to bail with one's own tin cup while encouraging others to start bailing.

I seriously think the profit motive will chase remaining non renewables off the map. Prolly most folks won't notice.

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#29 Post by K9s » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:41 pm

I think that all it needs is some awareness. I bought some cheap solar lights a few years ago assuming they would be poor, but I would try. They work well and still work.

Wind works, too. I have seen it in other states. People just need to be educated.

When people finally realize that wave power is awesome and it doesn't obstruct ocean views, that will be helpful.
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#30 Post by CDFingers » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:42 am

Wave power _is_ solar power, technically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#31 Post by K9s » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:16 pm

*sigh*

Completely different technologies to capture wave power.

On a lighter note: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... age-226755
But now another technology revolution is underway that could help solve that problem: an electricity storage boom. The cost of lithium-ion batteries has plunged 85 percent in a decade, and 30 percent in just the past year, so utilities across the U.S. have started attaching containers full of them to the grid—and they’re planning to install far more of them in the coming years. Electricity has always been the toughest commodity to manage, because unlike water, grain, fuel or steel, it has been largely impossible to store for later use. But that is changing fast, and even though the dramatic growth of batteries on the grid will be invisible to most Americans, it has the potential to transform how we produce and consume power, creating more flexible and resilient electricity systems with less waste, lower costs and fewer emissions.
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#32 Post by wooglin » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:26 pm

K9s wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:16 pm
On a lighter note: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... age-226755
Wonder how those batteries are made and what the environmental consequences are.

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#33 Post by K9s » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:21 pm

wooglin wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:26 pm
K9s wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:16 pm
On a lighter note: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... age-226755
Wonder how those batteries are made and what the environmental consequences are.
That was my first thought. I found this: "Though lithium-ion batteries help promote many sustainable actions, it's worth noting that the batteries themselves are not yet "environmental friendly." However, when compared to the alternative of using fossil fuels, lithium-batteries come out far ahead"

Don't worry. They will just ship the toxic materials to "business-friendly" GOP states and friendly dictatorships. What could possibly go wrong?
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#34 Post by TrueTexan » Thu May 02, 2019 3:52 pm

Here's and article that talks about how the total electric car is more polluting than a diesel.
Beneath the hoods of millions of the clean electric cars rolling onto the world’s roads in the next few years will be a dirty battery.

Every major carmaker has plans for electric vehicles to cut greenhouse gas emissions, yet their manufacturers are, by and large, making lithium-ion batteries in places with some of the most polluting grids in the world.

By 2021, capacity will exist to build batteries for more than 10 million cars running on 60 kilowatt-hour packs, according to data of Bloomberg NEF. Most supply will come from places like China, Thailand, Germany and Poland that rely on non-renewable sources like coal for electricity.

“We’re facing a bow wave of additional CO2 emissions,” said Andreas Radics, a managing partner at Munich-based automotive consultancy Berylls Strategy Advisors, which argues that for now, drivers in Germany or Poland may still be better off with an efficient diesel engine.

The findings, among the more bearish ones around, show that while electric cars are emission-free on the road, they still discharge a lot of the carbon-dioxide that conventional cars do.

Just to build each car battery—weighing upwards of 500 kilograms (1,100 pounds) in size for sport-utility vehicles—would emit up to 74 percent more C02 than producing an efficient conventional car if it’s made in a factory powered by fossil fuels in a place like Germany, according to Berylls’ findings.

Yet regulators haven’t set out clear guidelines on acceptable carbon emissions over the life cycle of electric cars, even as the likes of China, France and the U.K. move toward outright bans of combustion engines.

“It will come down to where is the battery made, how is it made, and even where do we get our electric power from,” said Henrik Fisker, chief executive officer and chairman of Fisker Inc., a California-based developer of electric vehicles.

For perspective, the average German car owner could drive a gas-guzzling vehicle for three and a half years, or more than 50,000 kilometers, before a Nissan Leaf with a 30 kWh battery would beat it on carbon-dioxide emissions in a coal-heavy country, Berylls estimates show.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ctric-cars

The study is totally flawed. Yes there is pollution involved with the mining and manufacturing of the lithium batteries. This study relies heaven that fact. But they don't mention the pollution create by the oil extraction transportation and refining of the crude oil to diesel fuel, along with the other products and polluting waste.

This study sounds like it was written by Exxon or the Koch Bros.
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#35 Post by CDFingers » Thu May 02, 2019 8:38 pm

I will be interested to discover whether electric cars will go 3-400K miles like a diesel. That will be quite something if they do. Not as many moving parts, so that's good. The more maintenance-free the entire vehicle package, the more likely that it will succeed long term.

Many money folks are moving to protect their (foolish) investments in fossil fuels, so they unnecessarily inflate various significances with respect to the cost of electric cars. I think the jury is still out, and these questions must be asked and options investigated. The questions are good, but the whining is not.

We can still use oil. We just can't burn it any more. We can still make stuff out of it and so on. Oil will not die. But burning it should die. It's either it or us, as it were.

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#36 Post by Wino » Fri May 03, 2019 1:29 pm

I still believe electric cars are a feel good stop gap and not the future nor economically sound. We trade one pollutant for another. Oil will be used well into the next century regardless, provided we are still around. Beam me to my chosen destination, Scottie!!
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#37 Post by AndyH » Sun May 12, 2019 2:57 pm

Mason wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:45 pm
Hi all. I'm having this problem. I can't talk about climate change without, almost across the board, ending up angry with the person I'm talking to.
<snips>
Anyway, a rant I guess. I have a child and I'd like him (and my team Republican friends kids) to have a future.
I feel your pain, agree with your findings, and don't have a solution. Maybe CD's 'keep bailing and encourage others to bail, too' method is all we have. Unfortunately, that means it'll have to get much worse before Mother Nature can recruit more 'bailers'.
CDFingers wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:38 pm
I will be interested to discover whether electric cars will go 3-400K miles like a diesel. That will be quite something if they do. Not as many moving parts, so that's good. The more maintenance-free the entire vehicle package, the more likely that it will succeed long term.
Drivetrains are designed for the same target life as semi tractors: 1,000,000 miles. Tesla's current batteries are in the 300,000-500,000 mile range and improving.
CDFingers wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:38 pm
We can still use oil. We just can't burn it any more. We can still make stuff out of it and so on. Oil will not die. But burning it should die. It's either it or us, as it were.
Exactly - oil's already too valuable to burn.
Wino wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 1:29 pm
I still believe electric cars are a feel good stop gap and not the future nor economically sound. We trade one pollutant for another.
Electric transportation as a whole (and BEVs as a subset) is/are much more than a feel good stop gap. I would agree with you if the plan was for a 1:1 swap from an ICE car to an EV, but that's not happening. In addition to EVs as an option, people are buying fewer cars (preferring access to a service rather than ownership), and autonomous cars (automated taxis/auto-Uber) are triggering a complete paradigm shift. Disruption isn't linear, I guess is the point. I don't think it's possible to maintain anything near our western society/expectations without rapidly moving to electrification - cars, trucks, trains, heating, process heat, the works. We're heading for massive suck. Electrification reduces the suck.

References:

Embodied energy/GHG production for cars. TL:DR - EVs are massively better than ICE both in terms of cradle to grave embodied energy and cradle to grave GHGs.
https://aceee.org/press/2019/01/evs-tak ... -list-auto


2:00:20 for initial 1 million mile capability, 2:18:11 for comments on million mile life for Tesla batteries
The cars currently being built are all designed for 1 million miles of operation. The drive units are designed, tested, and validated for a million miles of operation. The current battery pack is about maybe 300,000-500,000 miles. The new pack probably going into production next year is designed explicitly for 1 million miles of operation. The entire vehicle, battery pack inclusive, is designed to operate for a million miles with minimal maintenance.
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#38 Post by CDFingers » Mon May 13, 2019 1:44 am

Great info, Andy. A million miles. That's a lot of range trips.

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#39 Post by AndyH » Sat May 18, 2019 1:57 pm

Why? Because 'Bill Nye'. (Twice - watch to the end.)

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#40 Post by Agrilidia » Sun May 19, 2019 5:43 pm

AndyH wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:57 pm
Why? Because 'Bill Nye'. (Twice - watch to the end.)

Is the video not working only for me?

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#41 Post by AndyH » Mon May 20, 2019 11:13 am

https://climatecrocks.com/2019/05/20/ne ... unication/
We’ve spent the last dozen years trying to figure out best practice for climate communication.
No one has a magic bullet, but young scientists and engineers are finding creative pathways to tell the story in fresh fashion.
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#42 Post by pitbullprogrammer » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:59 am

I gave up (mostly). There's some people I know that truly don't understand the issue and are willing to approach with an open mind. It's really a matter of faith; they don't want to believe things are getting worse, they want to believe they're getting better. My only real solution is try to vote for candidates that are going to do something about climate change, and encourage other people to vote that way.

I see it going, in a best case scenario, the way Obamacare went- before Obamacare, insurers weren't required to cover pre-existing conditions, and Republicans claimed that if they were the sky would fall and your skin would boil. Then Obamacare mandated that pre-existing conditions be covered by insurers, and now no Republican wants to roll back this protection (even if they want to repeal Obamacare as a whole). I'm hoping that enough people that will do something pro-active about climate change are voted into office, and then the deniers will realize it was a good enough idea after all a few years later.

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#43 Post by K9s » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:03 am

pitbullprogrammer wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:59 am
I gave up (mostly). There's some people I know that truly don't understand the issue and are willing to approach with an open mind. It's really a matter of faith; they don't want to believe things are getting worse, they want to believe they're getting better. My only real solution is try to vote for candidates that are going to do something about climate change, and encourage other people to vote that way.

I see it going, in a best case scenario, the way Obamacare went- before Obamacare, insurers weren't required to cover pre-existing conditions, and Republicans claimed that if they were the sky would fall and your skin would boil. Then Obamacare mandated that pre-existing conditions be covered by insurers, and now no Republican wants to roll back this protection (even if they want to repeal Obamacare as a whole). I'm hoping that enough people that will do something pro-active about climate change are voted into office, and then the deniers will realize it was a good enough idea after all a few years later.
At Thanksgiving, this topic will not be discussed. For some reason, climate change is believed by some to be a hoax... for some reason.... Why? I cannot imagine, except "socialism" it seems.
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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#44 Post by pitbullprogrammer » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:25 am

K9s wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:03 am
pitbullprogrammer wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:59 am
I gave up (mostly). There's some people I know that truly don't understand the issue and are willing to approach with an open mind. It's really a matter of faith; they don't want to believe things are getting worse, they want to believe they're getting better. My only real solution is try to vote for candidates that are going to do something about climate change, and encourage other people to vote that way.

I see it going, in a best case scenario, the way Obamacare went- before Obamacare, insurers weren't required to cover pre-existing conditions, and Republicans claimed that if they were the sky would fall and your skin would boil. Then Obamacare mandated that pre-existing conditions be covered by insurers, and now no Republican wants to roll back this protection (even if they want to repeal Obamacare as a whole). I'm hoping that enough people that will do something pro-active about climate change are voted into office, and then the deniers will realize it was a good enough idea after all a few years later.
At Thanksgiving, this topic will not be discussed. For some reason, climate change is believed by some to be a hoax... for some reason.... Why? I cannot imagine, except "socialism" it seems.
Oh that pesky Obama..with his secret Kenyan socialist voodoo, convincing the libtards that climate change is real! It's just a plot to get you to pay higher taxes!

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#45 Post by pitbullprogrammer » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:29 am

I feel like the half of the country that doesn't believe in climate change are more alike than unalike than the narrator in the Dead Milkmen song "Stuart", and they all believe that the queers are building landing strips for gay alien martians:

[youtu_be]
https://youtu.be/71PNZH1OaW0
[/youtu_be]

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#46 Post by lurker » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:09 am

pitbullprogrammer wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:29 am
the queers are building landing strips for gay alien martians:
this is so wrong. :wall: if martians came from the blue planet it would make sense, but everyone knows that mars is the red planet.
maybe this explains it: :hmmm:
https://medium.com/@aandolan/actually-m ... efe4389b83
:wacko:

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Re: How to Discuss Climate Change - I Can't!

#47 Post by CDFingers » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:31 am

Carbon sequestration via carbon capture and regenerative agriculture, and disruption of fossil fuel use due to lower prices for renewable energy. That's the ticket. And paper straws. Gotta have a symbol.

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