"The Iconic Man With a Gun Is a White Man"

1
NYT opinion on the 1/20 rally in Richmond, Virginia.
The Iconic Man With a Gun Is a White Man
But that “peace” can’t be separated from intimidation; progressive groups urged members not to go to the Capitol to avoid violent confrontation with extremists. There were no counterprotests or rival demonstrations. The Second Amendment had effectively limited the First.

As I watched the rally, it was impossible not to think through counterfactuals. What if these were left-wing protesters instead? Twenty-two thousand members of the Democratic Socialists of America, armed and threatening insurrection if the Commonwealth of Virginia didn’t establish a system for single-payer health care. How would the state authorities react? Would they give them a wide berth or would they assume hostile intent?

What if this were 22,000 black nationalists, similarly armed, similarly enraged at the prospect of gun control? Would the police have had the same light touch, watching and listening but allowing events to unfold? Or would they have gone into overdrive with riot gear and armored vehicles, aggressive tactics and a presumption of criminality?
sbɐɯ ʎʇıɔɐdɐɔ pɹɐpuɐʇs ɟo ןןnɟ ǝɟɐs
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ

Re:

2
Got a POV on Bouie's Op-Ed?

I think his point that had this people been Black, then would Northam have gone Ronald Reagan or maybe, even addressed them? I HOPE it would have been the latter.

Besides, if 6 had been arrested, they probably STILL would have been White supremacist nazis.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re:

3
...every American has a right to gun ownership, but the paradigmatic gun owner is still a white man.
True, but minorities especially in urban areas have aligned with anti-gun groups in their response to urban gang and gun violence and like Everytown/Moms push to restrict guns and gun ownership. Historically it was all white ownership or restricted possession, but that's the past not the present, people have a choice.
Last edited by highdesert on Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Re:

4
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:48 am Got a POV on Bouie's Op-Ed?

I think his point that had this people been Black, then would Northam have gone Ronald Reagan or maybe, even addressed them? I HOPE it would have been the latter.

Besides, if 6 had been arrested, they probably STILL would have been White supremacist nazis.

The one person arrested AT the rally was a woman of color. She was arrested for wearing a bandana and charged with a felony.

Think about how the optics would look if that got into the mainstream press; Blackface Governor's police arrest woman of color for exercising 1st and 2nd amendment rights.

Re: Re:

5
NegativeApproach wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:08 am
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:48 am Got a POV on Bouie's Op-Ed?

I think his point that had this people been Black, then would Northam have gone Ronald Reagan or maybe, even addressed them? I HOPE it would have been the latter.

Besides, if 6 had been arrested, they probably STILL would have been White supremacist nazis.

The one person arrested AT the rally was a woman of color. She was arrested for wearing a bandana and charged with a felony.

Think about how the optics would look if that got into the mainstream press; Blackface Governor's police arrest woman of color for exercising 1st and 2nd amendment rights.
I was referencing the 6 arrested before it.

But the irony was that there are numerous pictures of people wearing masks, including a Trump mask by a Trumpist, who were NOT arrested. It is kind of hard to imagine the Gov having that kind of micro-mgt of the police.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Re:

6
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:11 am
NegativeApproach wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:08 am
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:48 am Got a POV on Bouie's Op-Ed?

I think his point that had this people been Black, then would Northam have gone Ronald Reagan or maybe, even addressed them? I HOPE it would have been the latter.

Besides, if 6 had been arrested, they probably STILL would have been White supremacist nazis.

The one person arrested AT the rally was a woman of color. She was arrested for wearing a bandana and charged with a felony.

Think about how the optics would look if that got into the mainstream press; Blackface Governor's police arrest woman of color for exercising 1st and 2nd amendment rights.
I was referencing the 6 arrested before it.

But the irony was that there are numerous pictures of people wearing masks, including a Trump mask by a Trumpist, who were NOT arrested. It is kind of hard to imagine the Gov having that kind of micro-mgt of the police.
I have seen pictures of gay and transgender people at the rally. I have seen pictures of people of color there. Antifa was there. Now was it overwhelmingly white, without doubt... but the organizers apparently made an effort to include diversity and had a Gadsden Pride rainbow flag flying in the middle of the march. If the mainstream gun movement is starting to recognize the power of solidarity finally; GOOD!

The attempt by Antis to paint this as a white supremacist march is a false flag operation. It's intentional, and if some white power dudes got arrested beforehand, good. I have no sympathy for nazis or any white supremacists. There's also the potential the the rally organizers assisted with information on them, but who really knows the truth there?

What I do know, is that the only person arrested at the event was a person of color, and she was charged with a felony under a law intended to unmask the KKK while actively promoting her 1st and 2nd amendment rights. This was done by the police in a state where the governor has worn blackface. Those are all facts. If that's not the definition of irony, I don't know what is.

Re:

7
I'm a 14th Amendment Second Amendment supporter: "persons." And I don't care who knows it. Everyone else can take a long walk off a short pier.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re:

8
The opinion has a point. Sort of. But there's a lot more to it. He'd be more accurate if he'd said "white middle class." There were plenty of white women there. I think it's more of a way to say something bad about an otherwise peaceful demonstration by the medias' red-headed stepchild.

Why was the demonstration predominantly white? Couple of reasons I can come up with. The first is that the white middle class makes up most demonstrations not directly associated with a minority rights abuse (that's been my experience with environmental demonstrations as well as the Women's March). The ability to travel to these things and take time off from work requires some financial wherewithal. Second, I'm certain the LGC leadership wasn't the only alt-gun organization to warn its members away. I didn't see any PinkPistols or National African American Gun Association shirts. I did see a couple of Black Guns Matter shirts. Third, white middle class has the white privileged to go to this sort of thing with far less risk of being arrested or shot. Fourth, the media's constant painting of this as a white supremacist rally and associating it with Charlottesville worked to scare off a lot of people that might otherwise have attended. And finally, gun control represents a threat to everyone's rights, but it's one of the few that impacts whites and their long-standing hegemony. So yeah, they're going to be there. I'm not convinced this makes whites showing up bad, similar to white efforts on other civil rights movements. Some people, regardless of skin color, understand that rights belong to us all.

Tangentially related, in the involvement I've had in my community with a climate adaptation group, we've been continually challenged with getting the voice of Hispanic community members engaged. They represent the group that will be most impacted by climate change as they are, predominantly, the ones doing the agricultural and construction work in the summers where heat exhaustion is a real risk in coming years. We've had a number of conversations surrounding the "white-down" optics of this. But the fact is, it's difficult to get a demographic to a community meeting or rally when they need to be at their second or third job to feed the kids. Climate change, like gun rights, does not represent an immediate threat. It is largely irrelevant compared to hunger and rent, so minority working class people will be underrepresented. So, once again, it's a lot less about guns and much more about the larger picture.

Re:

9
Featureless wrote a good post about the challenges of protesting for 2A rights. There is a good reason why it was white guys (mostly) and we all know it. Northam isn't the police and has his own views, but the police would have reacted differently to a group of 1000s of armed Black Panthers. The NYT opinion article really is a part of the larger picture of inequality but misses the forest for the trees.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re:

10
Why act against our own self interests?

A pro-gun rights march happened and if the majority of our energy is going to be spent nitpicking it rather than acting in solidarity, then we're in for a REALLY rough 2020 election cycle.

If we have a progressive candidate, what efforts can we make to make sure they are pro-2nd amendment? If there is a moderate candidate, what efforts can we make to make sure they are pro-2nd amendment?

My vote would be for engagement, rallies, and being out there in the world, and outside of our comfort zones. That might involve rubbing shoulders with people we don't agree with (that's the case most of the time when I'm at any sort of gun-centric events).

But, being at pro-gun events have also helped me disassemble the narrative that we're all a completely different species. I'd also like to believe that my being there and being vocal has helped to spread some of my views into the mainstream gun culture.

Can anyone imagine this being an image from a pro-gun rally 10 years ago? I sure as hell can't.
prideflag.jpg
The needle is moving, and we have to stay engaged to make sure it continues to move.

Re:

11
My strategy is to push the phrase, "Shooting stuff is fun." Go with the facts. Just shot yesterday. Had fun shooting stuff. Tough to rebut.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Re:

12
CDFingers wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:50 am My strategy is to push the phrase, "Shooting stuff is fun." Go with the facts. Just shot yesterday. Had fun shooting stuff. Tough to rebut.

CDFingers
:thumbup:
and mine is "all of the BOR, all of the time". and handing out LGC stickers, i gave away two yesterday at the range. if they end up in the trash, that's ok, if nothing else they need to know we're out here. no, we're not all defenseless snowflakes or POCs who stand out in the crowd. as we were leaving i told one of the guys i went with, "hearts and minds, one at a time".
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: Re:

13
NegativeApproach wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:45 amIf we have a progressive candidate, what efforts can we make to make sure they are pro-2nd amendment? If there is a moderate candidate, what efforts can we make to make sure they are pro-2nd amendment?
You _could_ reread that and erupt into laughter. Currently, there are no such candidates. Regardless of what excuses apologists might make, the existing ones have pledged fealty to the cause of firearm prohibition. Even the conservatives don't have a pro-RKBA candidate.

Re: Re:

15
mrcee12 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:06 am Don't mix up fire arm restrictions with prohibition. I
I can assure you I did not "mix up" those terms. Every candidate of note on the Democratic side has proposed or voted in favor of prohibiting black semi-automatic carbines and standard-capacity magazines. One who advocates banning/prohibiting firearms is a firearm prohibitionist.

Re: Re:

16
DispositionMatrix wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:25 am Every candidate of note on the Democratic side has proposed or voted in favor of prohibiting black semi-automatic carbines and standard-capacity magazines.
Yup. And they are targeting banning the most 2A consistent of firearms though these acts, those in common use (they are the most common rifles today) and useful for militia purposes, protected by the 2A, Miller, Heller and McDonald. That isn't gun control. That is an effort to extinguish the heart of the 2nd Amendment.

Re: Re:

17
DispositionMatrix wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:52 am
NegativeApproach wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:45 amIf we have a progressive candidate, what efforts can we make to make sure they are pro-2nd amendment? If there is a moderate candidate, what efforts can we make to make sure they are pro-2nd amendment?
You _could_ reread that and erupt into laughter. Currently, there are no such candidates. Regardless of what excuses apologists might make, the existing ones have pledged fealty to the cause of firearm prohibition. Even the conservatives don't have a pro-RKBA candidate.
If you've given up before the battle has even begun, the fight is already lost.

Re: Re:

18
featureless wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:58 am
DispositionMatrix wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:25 am Every candidate of note on the Democratic side has proposed or voted in favor of prohibiting black semi-automatic carbines and standard-capacity magazines.
Yup. And they are targeting banning the most 2A consistent of firearms though these acts, those in common use (they are the most common rifles today) and useful for militia purposes, protected by the 2A, Miller, Heller and McDonald. That isn't gun control. That is an effort to extinguish the heart of the 2nd Amendment.
And my fear is that since EVERY single candidate running for president in 2020 (on all sides) is anti-2nd amendment, that means that people will stay home and that means 4 more years of Trump. I'm not ok with that. I feel that our main and primary focus is working to change the minds of the left-leaning candidates to get them to drop their Anti stances, but we're up against BIG money from the Bloomberg slush fund. He's already committed to spending 1 billion dollars on his agenda, and that's a lot of Anti money in the race.

Re:

19
It is total NRA, i.e. National Russian Association, to say that candidates asking for restrictions on firearms are prohibitionist. Just because someone doesn't think you should have an 80 round magazine doesn't make them anti-second amendment. And the second amendment, unlike the first, comes with words of limitation, that "well-regulated" part that so many seem eager to leave out. If your stance is that any attempt to reasonably regulate guns is inimical, then you will bring on the world you so fear. There is a middle ground, just find it.

Re: Re:

20
CDFingers wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:50 am My strategy is to push the phrase, "Shooting stuff is fun." Go with the facts. Just shot yesterday. Had fun shooting stuff. Tough to rebut.

CDFingers
Best answer.

I won't vote GOP just because they want some people to be armed or a Dem just because they want gun control.

The 2A should apply to everyone, not just who the wealthy donors want to have firearms. That goes for R and D. It is a wedge issue like "abortion" and is used as a distraction. R and D want more money. They really don't give a damn about my rights, but I fear GOP right now more than I fear Dems.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Re:

21
mrcee12 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:16 pm It is total NRA, i.e. National Russian Association, to say that candidates asking for restrictions on firearms are prohibitionist. Just because someone doesn't think you should have an 80 round magazine doesn't make them anti-second amendment. And the second amendment, unlike the first, comes with words of limitation, that "well-regulated" part that so many seem eager to leave out. If your stance is that any attempt to reasonably regulate guns is inimical, then you will bring on the world you so fear. There is a middle ground, just find it.
it also says "shall not be infringed". imperative.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: Re:

22
lurker wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:35 pm
mrcee12 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:16 pm It is total NRA, i.e. National Russian Association, to say that candidates asking for restrictions on firearms are prohibitionist. Just because someone doesn't think you should have an 80 round magazine doesn't make them anti-second amendment. And the second amendment, unlike the first, comes with words of limitation, that "well-regulated" part that so many seem eager to leave out. If your stance is that any attempt to reasonably regulate guns is inimical, then you will bring on the world you so fear. There is a middle ground, just find it.
it also says "shall not be infringed". imperative.
Wouldn't it be great if SCOTUS would make a f**ing decision that reflected that?
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Re:

23
K9s wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:35 pm
lurker wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:35 pm
mrcee12 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:16 pm It is total NRA, i.e. National Russian Association, to say that candidates asking for restrictions on firearms are prohibitionist. Just because someone doesn't think you should have an 80 round magazine doesn't make them anti-second amendment. And the second amendment, unlike the first, comes with words of limitation, that "well-regulated" part that so many seem eager to leave out. If your stance is that any attempt to reasonably regulate guns is inimical, then you will bring on the world you so fear. There is a middle ground, just find it.
it also says "shall not be infringed". imperative.
Wouldn't it be great if SCOTUS would make a f**ing decision that reflected that?
Yes. Yes it would.

Re:

24
ok, so here we are well into the 21st century, the NFA of (19)34 is 86 years old, the GCA is 52, there's been a lot of water over the dam, under the bridge, and we're not going to undo those any time soon. but stop, enough. shall not be infringed.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: Re:

25
mrcee12 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:16 pm It is total NRA, i.e. National Russian Association, to say that candidates asking for restrictions on firearms are prohibitionist. Just because someone doesn't think you should have an 80 round magazine doesn't make them anti-second amendment. And the second amendment, unlike the first, comes with words of limitation, that "well-regulated" part that so many seem eager to leave out. If your stance is that any attempt to reasonably regulate guns is inimical, then you will bring on the world you so fear. There is a middle ground, just find it.
+1
If liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory. - Mickey Kaus, The New Republic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests