Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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I have two dots with instant on and auto off- one is the Sig Romeo, the other the Leupold Deltapoint. The battery, for me, in the Romeo made it about a year, but the good part about it on my p320 is that it has irons for backup with the stock sights. The DP has that ability as well, but I'd definitely need to replace the front sight on my P-01 to make it work. Since they are motion activated, I'd imagine that if you carry with them, the battery life would be far less.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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AndyH wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:25 am nearsighted eyes with enough astigmatism to turn things smaller than a quarter into snowflakes think the inventor of reflex sights should get a Nobel prize in their choice of categories. :lol:
I'm getting there, too. I haven't gotten much time behind the RMR I picked up, but it is amazing how much easier the sight picture is. I've found shooting irons, I do better with reading glasses, but then I can't see anything except the irons... (well, it's not really that bad, but you know how it is.)

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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featureless wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:18 am
AndyH wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:25 am nearsighted eyes with enough astigmatism to turn things smaller than a quarter into snowflakes think the inventor of reflex sights should get a Nobel prize in their choice of categories. :lol:
I'm getting there, too. I haven't gotten much time behind the RMR I picked up, but it is amazing how much easier the sight picture is. I've found shooting irons, I do better with reading glasses, but then I can't see anything except the irons... (well, it's not really that bad, but you know how it is.)
Exactly! My vision is great for desktop computer monitors and front pistol sights. Beyond the front sights, well...at 15 yards I can see a regulation black/cream pistol target, but can't tell where the black ends and the cream begins. With glasses, I can see the target but the irons are useless. I can use the dot with or without glasses. It's pretty damn sweet!

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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I used to view Red Dot sights as kinda silly...all Tacticool. I shot several older Walther .22 auts at the Indoor range last year and it was a lot of fun.
I have a Ruger SR9c and have decided since I can't trade it in and get a good price, I' tart it up with some internal parts to update, smooth out and have some fun customizing it.
I also want to put a Red Dot sight on it...why not have some fun with it right?
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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AndyH wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:41 pm I found a plate like this for my G17 to be the start of the 'slippery slope' to Dotlandia. A cut slide is better long term, no doubt, but this was an inexpensive way for me to see if this was a direction I wanted to go. FWIW

https://www.amazon.com/LONJN-Glock-17-M ... B075XKB8VV
I'm waiting to see how those might fit my latest purchase - a Sig 226 in 22LR. The "stock" sights are adjustable, and therefore the dovetail is wider than standard for a centrefire 226. Will have to see if the plate fits... I love the red-dot on my MkIV Target.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo.
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Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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featureless wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 pm
Elmo wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:45 pm I was an old school iron sights shooter for years, but starting shooting a red dot on a PCC and liked it. Now I've got one on my competition pistol (CZ SP01) and am getting used to itFinding the dot is a real issue at first -- the pistol indexes differently. But is should be cured with a few hours of dry fire practice. Once past that hump, the advantages should prevail.
Which one is on your sp01 and who did the milling?
Cajun Gun Works sold me a new SP01 slide milled for the Leopold Deltapoint, and included the 2.5 MOA dot version. Total package around $1K. Separately, I bought a Deltapoint with 8 MOA triangle and I like that better for pistol. I'll use the 2.5 dot one on a PCC or rifle or something else.
"To initiate a war of aggression...is the supreme international crime" - Nuremberg prosecutor Robert Jackson, 1946

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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Elmo wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:55 pm
featureless wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 pm
Elmo wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:45 pm I was an old school iron sights shooter for years, but starting shooting a red dot on a PCC and liked it. Now I've got one on my competition pistol (CZ SP01) and am getting used to itFinding the dot is a real issue at first -- the pistol indexes differently. But is should be cured with a few hours of dry fire practice. Once past that hump, the advantages should prevail.
Which one is on your sp01 and who did the milling?
Cajun Gun Works sold me a new SP01 slide milled for the Leopold Deltapoint, and included the 2.5 MOA dot version. Total package around $1K. Separately, I bought a Deltapoint with 8 MOA triangle and I like that better for pistol. I'll use the 2.5 dot one on a PCC or rifle or something else.
Separate slide, nice! I take it you called to arrange?

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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Adding, coming from the 1911 world, I was surprised when CGW told me CZ slides are considered drop-in parts -- no fitting required. So I've still got my original slide with my preferred iron sights I can go back to at any time.

I am really liking the pistol shooting technique that red dots enable. Focus both eyes on the target (as you would normally do in a "real world" shooting situation) and bring the pistol up to superimpose the dot over the target (either eye!) and shoot. Very fast, very natural.
"To initiate a war of aggression...is the supreme international crime" - Nuremberg prosecutor Robert Jackson, 1946

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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Elmo wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:55 pm Cajun Gun Works sold me a new SP01 slide milled for the Leopold Deltapoint, and included the 2.5 MOA dot version. Total package around $1K. Separately, I bought a Deltapoint with 8 MOA triangle and I like that better for pistol. I'll use the 2.5 dot one on a PCC or rifle or something else.
The Leupold DPP with the 8 MOA triangle is a nice RMR for a pistol. I've been running them for a couple of years on a Sig P320 and X5. The only downside is that the battery contact is held on by tape. If you shoot a lot, say 300-500 rds in a couple of hours in the heat, the adhesive on the tape starts melting and your dot won't turn on because the contacts have slid off the circuit board pads.

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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spara wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:07 pm The Leupold DPP with the 8 MOA triangle is a nice RMR for a pistol. I've been running them for a couple of years on a Sig P320 and X5. The only downside is that the battery contact is held on by tape. If you shoot a lot, say 300-500 rds in a couple of hours in the heat, the adhesive on the tape starts melting and your dot won't turn on because the contacts have slid off the circuit board pads.
Thanks for the heads up. That sounds like something Leupold ought to fix!
"To initiate a war of aggression...is the supreme international crime" - Nuremberg prosecutor Robert Jackson, 1946

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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Customs and Border Patrol (really popular around here since I am on the border) has requested proposals for a red dot optic to attach to their Glocks.

http://soldiersystems.net/2020/02/07/cb ... k-pistols/


CBP Seeks Service Handgun Electronic Aiming Device for New Glock Pistols
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Customs and Border Protection has issued an RFI to industry for a “Service Handgun Electronic Aiming Device”, a government euphemism for a Mini Red Dot Sight for their recently fielded G47 and G19 pistols manufactured by Glock. The slides are Modular Optic System (MOS) cut.



According to the RFI, any candidate optics will be subjected to a righteous battery of testing which cannot result in a shift of more than 2 MOA. Tests include 25,000 slide cycles with 9mm +P ammunition and horizontal forward and rearward (slide cycle direction) g-forces in excess of 7000G. Yes, 7000G.

Here are the general requirements called out in the RFI:

• MOUNTING
o Shall be capable of mounting directly and securely to GLOCK model G47 and G19 MOS-configured handguns.
? Shall be designed specifically to mount to MOS profile slide, and not allow for movement when properly mounted. (semi-permanent thread-lock substances, such as Loctite, may be used)
o Shall mount to the handgun slide MOS-cut directly, without the use of adaptor plates.
? Shall not rely exclusively on screws to prevent movement. Must not allow for font/back or left/right movement once placed in MOS cut-out when held by gravity alone.
o Must allow visibility of back-up iron sights (properly installed Ameriglo Agent night sights) through the lower portion of display in case of optic failure. Shall not require the use of backup iron sights (BUIS) taller than the CBP-issued Ameriglo Agent Night Sights.

• TARGET VISIBILITY
o Aiming device shall not distort or otherwise interfere with clear view of target
o Mounted aiming device shall allow for a clear “target focus”
o Glass or transparent viewing window, if applicable, shall be resistant to fogging, water adhesion, or other environmental interference

• RETICLE
o Reticle shape shall be a dot
o Preferred color for reticle is red or green
o Reticle brightness shall be adjustable. Adjustability shall range from visible under direct sunlight to reduced illumination during nighttime operations.
o Reticle shall be designed to encourage rapid sight acquisition and alignment with target
o Reticle or aiming point shall be crisp, clear, and visible while shooter’s focus is on target (i.e. allows for target focus shooting, with minimal parallax distortion)
o Reticle size shall allow for precision aiming at various engagement distances
? A 3-7 Minute of Angle (MOA) dot is preferred
o If projected, reticle emitter must be fully enclosed or protected to prevent reticle diminishment or disappearance as a result of sand, dust, mud, water, or debris.
? Must resist reticle interference in the following orientations: downward (as holstered), horizontal (as aimed at target), and laterally (held 90 degrees left or right while aimed at target)
o Reticle shall have a hertz (Hz) frequency which appears to the human eye as a solid illumination point, even if moved rapidly from target to target
? Shall not appear to the shooter to flicker or lag when moved rapidly from one target to another
o Reticle shall be capable of being “zeroed” while mounted on a G19 and G47 handgun, and shall be adjustable for point of aim / point of impact (POA/POI)
? Adjustments to POA/POI (windage and elevation) should require the use of a tool (i.e. slot screw driver or allen/torx wrench)
? Adjustments should require deliberate action to adjust (i.e. finger pressure on adjustment screws should not be sufficient to adjust)

• POWER SUPPLY
o Shall be electronically operated by a removable and replaceable power source which is readily available on the commercial market (i.e. battery)
o Power source must be accessible for replacement without removing the aiming device from the firearm
o Device must be capable of remaining “on” for a minimum of 6 months while set to a daylight visible brightness setting without power supply replacement or recharge
? No shift in POA/POI when battery is replaced
? Daylight visible can be defined as immediately visible to the average shooter under direct sunlight
o Solar power is acceptable but not required, and shall not be the sole source of power or power replenishment (i.e. must still have replaceable power source)
o Ability to recharge the power supply without removal (i.e. charging cable) is acceptable but not required, and shall not be the sole source of power replenishment (i.e. must still have replaceable power source)

• SIZE/WEIGHT
o Shall not be larger than necessary to provide a clear aiming view
? Forward most edge of viewing window must be at least 3/8” behind top of ejection port to reduce likelihood of obscuring by hot gas or debris
? Sides must not protrude more than 1/16th” on either side of the slide when mounted
? Height must not be greater than 1 1/4th” when mounted, measured from the top most flat portion of the slide, not including sights
o Weight shall not interfere with consistent and reliable cycle of operations on the handgun
o Window(s) or viewing area of device, if applicable, shall be of sufficient size to allow clear and rapid acquisition of reticle, without impeding clear view of target

Industry responses are required by than 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday, February 26th, 2020. See beta.sams.gov for details. SAMS is the replacement for FBO. It is a trainwreck, so if the link doesn’t work, search for ‘aiming.’



This entry was posted on Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 13:25 and is filed under Contracts, LE, Optics, Weapon Accessories. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

15 Responses to “CBP Seeks Service Handgun Electronic Aiming Device for New Glock Pistols”
Last edited by JohnNewell on Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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"Must allow visibility of back-up iron sights (properly installed Ameriglo Agent night sights) through the lower portion of display in case of optic failure. Shall not require the use of backup iron sights (BUIS) taller than the CBP-issued Ameriglo Agent Night Sights."

I'm not familiar with MOS cuts but I'm not sure there's an RMR that lets you use standard height sights. I know with the Leupold DPP, you still need suppressor height sights to use it with their rear BUIS.

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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spara wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:19 am I'm not familiar with MOS cuts but I'm not sure there's an RMR that lets you use standard height sights. I know with the Leupold DPP, you still need suppressor height sights to use it with their rear BUIS.
I know of two. The Shield RMS/JPoint (used by military outside of the US) and the Sig Romeo Zero (not released yet or understocked). Both sit very low and have a rear sight "notch" that either allows use as the rear sight or allows the user to see through the notch for a traditional set of irons. There should be more of these.

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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Just found this thread looking for opinions on red dots for pistols. My CC gun is an MP 2 9mm w/ 4 in barrel...any recommendations for brand? There’s some great arguments for and against. I’m worried about added bulk or possibly snagging on shirt...I’ve searched the webs to see my specific gun with dots & haven’t found a lot...it’s not something I wanna buy without seeing how it looks.


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Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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Red dots don't work well on concealed carry but the difference is night and day on a duty/competition pistol. The sight just gets in the way of CCW, but really does help a lot when aiming. Honestly, i would look at a light and laser pointer for a CC pistol, or a pistol with those factory integrated, before going for a red dot on anything you gotta tuck. It takes some work to find a holster that works, but it will draw smoothly and allow you to point effectively from any number of bad positions far better than a red dot will.

Red dots mean you need a holster that will protect the scoop and prevent it from snagging, which is fine on the range or if that's your job, but you'll look silly and probably scare people if you walk around town open carrying without a badge, even in Texas.

Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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BillMcD wrote:Red dots don't work well on concealed carry but the difference is night and day on a duty/competition pistol. The sight just gets in the way of CCW, but really does help a lot when aiming. Honestly, i would look at a light and laser pointer for a CC pistol, or a pistol with those factory integrated, before going for a red dot on anything you gotta tuck. It takes some work to find a holster that works, but it will draw smoothly and allow you to point effectively from any number of bad positions far better than a red dot will.

Red dots mean you need a holster that will protect the scoop and prevent it from snagging, which is fine on the range or if that's your job, but you'll look silly and probably scare people if you walk around town open carrying without a badge, even in Texas.
Yeah that’s what keeps going through my mind...also it’s just one more thing I don’t need to think about. I’m looking at my current holsters, which I like, and they wouldn’t accommodate one.


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Re: "I Hate Red Dot Sights On Handguns - Change My Mind"

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BillMcD wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:25 pm Red dots don't work well on concealed carry but the difference is night and day on a duty/competition pistol. The sight just gets in the way of CCW, but really does help a lot when aiming. Honestly, i would look at a light and laser pointer for a CC pistol, or a pistol with those factory integrated, before going for a red dot on anything you gotta tuck. It takes some work to find a holster that works, but it will draw smoothly and allow you to point effectively from any number of bad positions far better than a red dot will.

I have a spare Streamlight laser/light and went out to shoot on a sunny day. The laser couldn't be seen. But Andy's red dot worked well in bright sunlight.

BillMcD wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:25 pm Red dots mean you need a holster that will protect the scoop and prevent it from snagging, which is fine on the range or if that's your job, but you'll look silly and probably scare people if you walk around town open carrying without a badge, even in Texas.

Just a bit of trivia but badges mean little in Texas. Unless you are impersonating a police officer perhaps, which will get you into major trouble. The prison system sells "badges" out of their gift shop that double as key holders and clip to your pocket with a variety of lettering. Made by offenders and perfectly legal to wear. http://www.txprisonmuseum.org/giftshop.html

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