Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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highdesert wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:40 pm
There were two misfires on the prop gun on Saturday and one the previous week, the person said, adding “there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set.”
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... ed-off-set
I'd like to know what they mean by "misfire."

In my lexicon, a misfire is when the gun DOESN'T go off when the trigger is pulled on a live round. Is that what they mean, or are they using "misfire" to mean "accidental discharge?"

Definitely wondering what the FUCK live ammo would be doing on a movie set. If I was a movie armorer and wanted to carry, I'd make a point of having my carry gun not match the caliber of any gun to be used as a prop, including mismatches like a .380 when props were 9 mm, since a 9 mm extractor might still headspace a .380 tight enough to fire.
IMR4227: Zero to 900 in 0.001 seconds

I'm only killing paper and my self-esteem.

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Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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The Wall Street Journal has identified the film’s armourer as 24-year-old Hanna Gutierrez Reed – who is the daughter of esteemed armorer and firearms consultant Thell Reed, who reportedly trained her: “from a young age”.
The New York Post reports the unnamed prop master who oversaw the gun used in the fatal shooting had been: “just brought in” to replace unionised staff who had walked out.
https://newsotime.com/news/gun-used-by- ... -director/https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0715715/

The AD has already made the tabloids.
https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/3 ... -the-crow/

Don't know if anyone will face charges but there will likely be plenty of lawsuits.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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There’s a lot of sloppy term usage about this incident in the media. Everything from “prop gun” to “misfire” all very misleading. Then unionized crew replaced by non union before the event. I can see this is tough for the media with prejudices against guns. Guns are not toys or don’t become less dangerous when used as props in a movie. It’s still a gun. It takes a human hand to pull a trigger and it takes live rounds in the chamber to hurt or kill. There’s not really any additional information needed, it’s the end result that matters. Everything else will be worked through in lawsuits to follow. Yes, there will be some. Will Baldwin be charged or held accountable, perhaps or perhaps not. While we know all guns should be treated as if loaded, he may be able to argue a reasonable expectation that a gun handed to him as a prop would have been checked. If I was on the jury, I wouldn’t accept that argument, some might. The media is falling all over this event because it doesn’t fit their usual narrative or perhaps it does. Guns are dangerous and should not be treated as toys. To me a term “prop gun” tries to distance away from the reality that the item was a real gun capable of holding live rounds. Words matter. Why a gun loaded with live ammo was on the set and why it was pointed and ultimately fired at a person is going to be for a jury to hear. Would I hold Baldwin responsible for pulling the trigger and killing his colleague, yes. I would also hold many others in the chain of possession and all the people who produced and were in charge responsible. It’s a mess. I also hold the media responsible for their prejudices and failure to report clearly.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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A performer at Moscow’s famous Bolshoi Theatre was crushed to death by a falling prop on stage. Yevgeny Kulesh, 37, was killed by the piece of scenery as it was lowered for a set change. Witnesses said the actor appeared to exit the stage on the wrong side during the performance of Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov’s opera ‘Sadko’...


All actors, in some way, suffer for their craft, with the very act of losing oneself inside another being coming at a high price. All that pushing and prodding of one’s pain, joy, love, loss and failure required by the craft is invasive by nature, demanding exposure that few of us would willingly suffer.

But there are those roles where the physical extremes parallel, or outpace, the emotional ones; where art is found in extraordinary action, an “our body, ourselves” melding of the abstract of emotions with the concrete of bone and sinew. In that, 2010 emerged as one of the most grueling in recent memory — bodies drenched in sweat, ribs cracked, pounds lost, pounds gained, muscle memory stretched to the limits. The year has turned acting into an extreme sport for some stars, an extreme pleasure for spectators. (Mercury News)
This isn't going well, is it?

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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papajim2jordan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:20 am No point, just an observation.

I'm (embarrassingly so) snared by this. Were it not for who and where, there's no story here that can't be had elsewhere any day of the week. Broken chain of custody, poor training/supervision, disrespecting the Angel of Death.

I lead a boring life, I should be thankful for that.
Agree to much. Also leading a pretty boring life myself. Most adult days seem to be boring and when they are not, one wishes they were.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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We should not wonder why some people fear guns. You could be just doing your job and get killed by a safe gun. It's a thing that's real. "If there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it" goes the famous saying. Something to that.

When we compare salaries of all those involved, well, there's something there, too. The true "essential" worker likely was paid the least. I wonder if everyone were getting the same money from this project, whether we'd've had this lost investment. Capitalism has consequences, sad to say. I hope her family gets taken care of by the company.

CDFingers
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Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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papajim2jordan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:37 am A performer at Moscow’s famous Bolshoi Theatre was crushed to death by a falling prop on stage. Yevgeny Kulesh, 37, was killed by the piece of scenery as it was lowered for a set change. Witnesses said the actor appeared to exit the stage on the wrong side during the performance of Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov’s opera ‘Sadko’...


All actors, in some way, suffer for their craft, with the very act of losing oneself inside another being coming at a high price. All that pushing and prodding of one’s pain, joy, love, loss and failure required by the craft is invasive by nature, demanding exposure that few of us would willingly suffer.

But there are those roles where the physical extremes parallel, or outpace, the emotional ones; where art is found in extraordinary action, an “our body, ourselves” melding of the abstract of emotions with the concrete of bone and sinew. In that, 2010 emerged as one of the most grueling in recent memory — bodies drenched in sweat, ribs cracked, pounds lost, pounds gained, muscle memory stretched to the limits. The year has turned acting into an extreme sport for some stars, an extreme pleasure for spectators. (Mercury News)
In 1987, my brother, an I.A.T.S.E. Local 1 full member, was nearly killed as the set of "Phantom of The Opera" was being loaded into its Broadway theater. The scene shop hadn't built a platform to specifications (he and I had seen this before, for a set at the Delacorte Theatre, in Central Park, in 1974). He stepped on it and fell 10' to a concrete floor. His injuries were massive and only a former Vietnam medic kept him from bleeding out. He had to have brain surgery (they had to lift his brain to patch a hole below it in his skull). He spent a year in recovery and has lifelong issues he deals with to this very day. He did, eventually, return to the backstage, after having gotten a law degree. He's currently the business agent for another I.A.T.S.E. union, having retired from Local 1.

There are accidents and there is negligence. His injuries were due to negligence and corner-cutting. Specs called for safety tabs on the platform even if it wasn't bolted in place. They were never installed.

When the I.A.T.S.E. members walked off the set, production should have been halted. Instead, scabs were used, and a woman's life was lost.

I do not know if Alec Baldwin knows the 4 Rules we all know. I do not know if actors who MAY know them are still strongly discouraged from checking prop weapons to be certain they are safe.

Assume the scenario that Baldwin does NOT know the 4 Rules. He's given a prop gun and told it's "cold", movie lingo for safe and unloaded. He doesn't know that you NEVER touch the trigger till you're ready to fire and aiming at your target. Was he pointing it roughly in the correct direction and ordered to simulate firing? I don't know.

Now what if he does know the rules: Is he ordered to suspend his own judgement in favor of the armorer? And follow directions?

How did Baldwin come to pull that trigger?
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I hate second guessing news stories until the facts are all out, but here I go anyway. I mean dying for the sake of a damn movie? That's what should be a "never" event.

Last story I read said actor was handed a gun that was declared "Cold gun!" Doesn't say if Baldwin checked the gun after that. Anyone here not verify the status of a gun when first taking possession of it? Didn't think so. Me neither.

But, it raises the question. How the hell is Baldwin supposed to check the status of the gun. It's supposed to be loaded with blanks. Western, so assuming single action revolver. Can't just rotate cylinder and check each chamber from the breech end--it'll show a loaded gun.

Sometimes badness happens when there is no single accountable person. Maybe the future is actor and armorer load gun together, seal it up until needed. Actor breaks seal when ready for scene. Actor is the only one responsible for said firearm.

With the amount of shooting in movies and TV, I'm sort of surprised this doesn't happen more.

It just occurred to me, maybe every movie doesn't have to be about killing people.

I don't really have an earthshaking point here. I've got a day off and I'm drinking coffee, so what else am I gonna do? Shitty thing to happen.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:58 am All professions have some degree of danger, life is that way. Gun safety is not however a huge mystery.

Yes that's the key to it, gun safety. Too early for an autopsy report on Hutchins so we don't have an official cause of death, a gun full of blanks can kill if not handled safely. This was apparently a low budget production and safety often suffers when budgets are lean. Apparently this is only the second film the armorer was in charge on, don't know if she had assistants. What was the chain of custody of those firearms after they left the armorer's hands? There was a labor situation and people were walking off the set and new people were arriving, was the armorer one of those people who left the set?

The anti-gun feeding frenzy has already started, the LA Times alone has 6 articles this morning. One article called for CA to license film and TV set armorers, production companies will just shoot in other states or Canada or Mexico. I don't recall that many articles after car or helicopter accidents on movie sets, but guns are "evil weapons" to the anti-gunners. CGI is there for some things, but from what I've seen it still looks cartoonish when weapons are fired. As sika said we may only get to the truth of this in the civil lawsuits that are years down the road.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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tonguengroover wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:36 am It amazes me how much liberal Hollywood likes to make shoot'm up movies yet cry about gun control.

I love me a western. There seems to be a slew of new western movies.

Guns in movies is their livelihood, CGI can't replace them and if Hollywood abandoned guns, production companies would shoot outside California in AZ, NM, CO, ID, MT... and those wages would be leaving the state. A lot is already shot in Canada, in BC about a two hour flight from LA. And Mexico is even closer. And they can use locals not members of US unions.

You have Old Tucson where many Westerns were shot.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I would still wonder from what I read that "live" or real rounds aren't suppose to be on a movie set according to safety standards. They had camera crew members walk of the set earlier over safety violations. That should have been a clue there was something wrong and needed to be corrected.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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TrueTexan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:53 am I would still wonder from what I read that "live" or real rounds aren't suppose to be on a movie set according to safety standards. They had camera crew members walk of the set earlier over safety violations. That should have been a clue there was something wrong and needed to be corrected.

Yes, there were so many red flags all over this incident. The haphazard way the guns were left sitting on a table, it's not impossible that someone could have tampered with them and put in real bullets. From the little I've read about firearms on a film or TV set, just before they start rolling the armorer or an assistant takes the gun to the actor/actress. And when the director calls cut, the armorer and assistants secure all firearms before anyone leaves the set.

Just speculation right now from statements referenced in the warrant, we don't have all the details.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Still missing a lot of details and context, but there's a lot coming out that says filming should've shut down before this happened. Whether the industry protocols were being followed or not, they clearly don't embrace the four rules. Rule number one, for crissake.

Reading that it was a live round. Consistent with the injuries. Director took a shot to the shoulder while standing behind the director of photography, who took it in the chest. Gun people argue about the risk of overpenetration and injured bystanders all the time. This doesn't sound like a blank knocking loose debris stuck in a barrel. This sounds like a .44-40 or .45 Colt with a cowboy load at the minimum.

Who TF lets an actor handle a gun without going over the four rules, I don't know. Baldwin had a responsibility to understand what he was handling. Sure it's hard to tell the difference between a blank, a dummy round, and a live round without taking them out and checking. You treat them all the same.

Whatever rules they thought they were following, weren't enough. Four rules are.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Ylatkit wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:21 pm If you pull the trigger, what the bullet does is your responsibility. Period.

It's all on Baldwin in my book.
That's too easy and simplistic.
When the armorer, or who you think is the armorer on the set, says the gun is "cold", apparently movie rules say the gun is safe.
WTF do I know about it?
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:03 pm
Ylatkit wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:21 pm If you pull the trigger, what the bullet does is your responsibility. Period.

It's all on Baldwin in my book.
That's too easy and simplistic.
When the armorer, or who you think is the armorer on the set, says the gun is "cold", apparently movie rules say the gun is safe.
WTF do I know about it?
And you'd pull the trigger relying on the armorer? Or anyone else?

Shame on you. That would put your gun handling on a par with Baldwin's.

There's nothing complicated about this.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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lurker wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:00 pm is mr baldwin a shooter, i.e. does he shoot outside a movie prop context?
No idea. Doesn't really matter.

The responsibility was his, and he failed to meet it. Whether he failed to meet it because of a lack of knowledge, a false belief, a belief in the law, belief in an armorer, belief in company rules, money, time or belief in a tooth fairy doesn't matter.

None of it matters, because none of it relieves his responsibility.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Producers of "The Rookie" are taking strict precautions after the fatal incident involving a prop gun on the set of "Rust" movie set occurred Thursday.

Alexi Hawley, the police drama's writer, sent an internal memo to the show's crew Friday informing them there "would be no more 'live' weapons on the show," according to reports from The Hollywood Reporter and The Los Angeles Times.

The procedural change came a day after authorities said Alec Baldwin discharged a prop firearm on the set of the upcoming film "Rust," killing the cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injuring the film's director Joel Souza.

"The tragic events in New Mexico yesterday have shaken us all, and our hearts go out to the friends and family of Halyna Hutchins and Joel Souza," the memo first obtained by THR read. "As of today, it is now policy on The Rookie that all gunfire on set will be Air Soft guns with CG muzzle flashes added in post."

"The Rookie," which is currently premiering new episodes of it's fourth season on ABC and was a top performer in USA TODAY's "Save our Shows" poll, stars Nathan Fillion as the LAPD's oldest recruit. USA TODAY reached out to reps for Hawley, Fillion and the show for further comment. "The safety our cast and crew is too important. Any risk is too much risk," the memo continued.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertai ... 154748001/

They were already using CGI, happened to see one of their episodes last season involving a shootout with drug cartel gunmen with full auto rifles, looked very cartoonish. Shootings on sets are very rare, probably more stuntmen are injured and killed than anyone shot.

Other than Jon-Erik Hexum who shot himself with a blank filled gun, the other high profile case is Brandon Lee son of famed actor Bruce Lee.
At first reports, Lee's March 31, 1993 death released little information. It was believed that a small explosive charge used to stimulate gunfire was the cause of death on the set of "The Crow" in Wilmington, N.C.

In the filming of a movie scene, actor Michael Massee shot a revolver at Lee's character as he walks into the room. Lee collapsed backwards and when he didn't stand up, the crew thought he was still acting. Lee was later rushed to the hospital, and after six hours of emergency surgery, he was pronounced dead.

It was later revealed through the autopsy that Lee's death during filming occurred as a result of a .44-caliber bullet discovered near Lee's spine. That naturally drew criticism of the movie set's safety. While blank ammunition was shot out of the gun, a lethal obstruction had been lodged in the barrel of the gun during the filming of another scene weeks prior.

Lee's mother, Linda Lee Cadwell, went on to file a lawsuit for negligence four months after her son's death. Cadwell alleged in the lawsuit that, "crew members ran out of dummy bullets and improperly manufactured their own from live ammunition. During a test firing of the dummy ammunition, a bullet tip wound up in the barrel of the handgun."

District Attorney Jerry Spivey announced after an April 1993 investigation that no criminal charges would be filed over Lee's death, with no evidence of criminal wrongdoing despite the movie crew's negligence.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertai ... 132318001/
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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