"Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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"Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by highdesert »

Drones - not just in the air.
At first it seems like a quirky, what-are-the-chances-of-that headline: "China rewards fishers who netted foreign spy devices." But behind that headline in Chinese state media, there is a different - and more intriguing - story. Firstly, this wasn't two or three fishermen receiving awards. It was 11 - one woman, the rest men - who found seven devices in total. Secondly, this wasn't the first time fishermen from Jiangsu had found "spy drones". In 2018, some 18 were rewarded for finding nine devices. There was also a ceremony a year earlier. And thirdly, the rewards were huge - up to 500,000 yuan ($72,000; £55,000) - around 17 times the average disposable income in China.

So where do the "submarine spies" come from? What do they do? Why are they valuable? And why are Chinese fishermen finding so many? Jiangsu is a province in eastern China, with a coastline more than 1,000km (620 miles) long. It faces Japan and South Korea, while Taiwan is around 500 miles south. This geography - and the huge US presence in the region - begins to explain why fishermen keep finding these devices. China has not revealed where the devices came from, merely saying they were "made in other countries".

But regional expert and consultant Alexander Neill says they probably came from "the US Navy, the Japan Self-Defense Forces, or potentially Taiwan - this is a big area of rivalry". So what are the Americans, the Japanese, or the Taiwanese hoping to learn? In 2009, the US Navy sponsored research into underwater drones, broadly known as "unmanned undersea vehicles (UUVs)". The research recommended seven ways UUVs could be used, including:

- Tracking "potentially adversary submarines"
- Looking for and dealing with underwater bombs - particularly in other countries' waters
- Deploying surveillance equipment
- Monitoring "undersea infrastructure", such as communication cables
- The research also highlighted the strengths of UUVs. Gliders - a smaller UUV, likely to be what the
Jiangsu fishermen found - can be deployed for "months" and are "cheap enough to be considered
expendable".

In this instance, cheap means "only tens of thousands of dollars". Their cost, range, and capability mean "submarine spies" are increasingly important - Mr Neill estimates the number worldwide is "certainly in the upper hundreds". So this explains - in part - why they keep turning up in Chinese nets. The country has a huge fishing fleet, and the law of averages suggests it will scoop up the occasional drone. But it's also true that China's fleet is different to other countries'. Some fishermen, themselves, are part of the military - and understanding how this unique unit works could explain why they keep finding military hardware.

The Chinese Maritime Militia is part of the national militia - that is, the reserve civilian forces. It is "virtually unique and publicly obscure", according to Professor Andrew S. Erickson from the US Naval War College - but it is well-known to the United States military. According to a 2017 report by the US Department of Defense, the CMM has played "significant roles in a number of military campaigns and coercive incidents over the years". In the past, the CMM rented vessels from companies or fishermen. But now, the DoD says, "it appears China is building a state-owned fishing fleet for its militia force". Indeed, Mr Neill says many boats are merely "masquerading as fishing vessels - they're actually doing naval and maritime surveillance against China's rivals". "On paper they look like sophisticated, modern trawlers," he says. "But they are actually, essentially, military-type vessels - steel-hulled, not wooden-hulled, with increasing tonnage.

"If you look at photographs, it's clear they're networked in - because of their signalling capabilities - with the [regular navy] command and control network." In effect, the fishing fleet can provide a low-level, first line of defence or surveillance - a military force working under a civilian cloak. "A very significant swathe of China's fishing fleet is co-opted into the militia," says Mr Neill. "I would have thought, with a little digging, you would find these guys [the Jiangsu fishermen] may well be part of it." China doesn't just find underwater drones - it operates them, too. At the military parade to mark the 70th anniversary of the People's Republic of China (PRC), the HSU001 was unveiled - a large UUV, possibly capable of launching smaller drones.

And five months earlier, another Chinese UUV was revealed in a less formal way, when Indonesian fishermen caught a "missile" with Chinese markings in the Riau Islands. "It's not a missile, but a sea drone, which is usually used for underwater research," said police. Although its origin was not confirmed, experts suspect it was part of China's vast sub-surface surveillance - the so-called "Great Underwater Wall of China". So, as UUV technology develops, more fishermen - whether in China, Indonesia, or beyond - can expect to find more drones.

"They [drones] are extending the range of surveillance capacity for all of the modern navies in the region," says Mr Neill. And - as the Jiangsu prize-winners discovered - they can be a valuable catch.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51130644
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by lurker »

maybe we should buy and deploy chinese-made UUVs, that might give us plausible deniability.

there's a parallel here with my polytech m14s. the chinese originally captured a few american m14 rifles during the vietnam war, and started copying them, with the intention of sharing them with "liberation" movements in 3rd-world countries to look like US aid. they took great pains to make them look just like USGI rifles, down to the forged/not cast receivers and op-rods, all in the name of plausible deniability. the odd thing is, they didn't bother to use SAE taps and dies, so the threads are metric. somebody dropped the ball, i expect he's languished in a forced-labor camp lo, these 50 years.

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by JohnNewell »

The US denied supplying U2 spy planes to Taiwan from the early 60's thru the early 70's. At one point the Chinese lined up at least 3 crashed U2s for photographic ourposes.

Here is one of the nonexistent U2s, now in a Chinese museum.
U2.jpg

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by K9s »

It could be like the bug bounty programs run by software companies. If a fisherman can catch your drone, give them a reward and fix what went wrong?

Probably just US-made drones, though.
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by highdesert »

JohnNewell wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:52 pm
The US denied supplying U2 spy planes to Taiwan from the early 60's thru the early 70's. At one point the Chinese lined up at least 3 crashed U2s for photographic ourposes.

Here is one of the nonexistent U2s, now in a Chinese museum.

U2.jpg
Saw a U-2 years ago at a military base probably an original, they also had an SR-71 Blackbird. The U-2 was really small, I pity the pilots. In the age of satellites the latest variation of the U-2 is probably little used.
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by JohnNewell »

highdesert wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:31 pm
JohnNewell wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:52 pm
The US denied supplying U2 spy planes to Taiwan from the early 60's thru the early 70's. At one point the Chinese lined up at least 3 crashed U2s for photographic ourposes.

Here is one of the nonexistent U2s, now in a Chinese museum.

U2.jpg
Saw a U-2 years ago at a military base probably an original, they also had an SR-71 Blackbird. The U-2 was really small, I pity the pilots. In the age of satellites the latest variation of the U-2 is probably little used.
Article at Wiki is interesting. More or less confirms a few points that I heard when I worked for The Bomb Company in the 80's.

At the time the U-2 had been in production longer than any other US aircraft. They built them (according to Wiki) from 1955 thru 1989. It's roughly an F-104 Starfighter fuselage, greatly modified, so it's a pretty ancient design.

Wiki doesn't make the claim, but I was under the impression that the U-2R was acting as a battlefield repeater as well as an intelligence gathering system, so it was re-transmitting some signals that it received. That's one of the reasons that it's been in service so long.

The planes are hugely notorious to land. They require a 2nd qualified pilot to chase the plane down the runway and give the actual pilots instructions on when to literally stall the plane for a landing. Wiki says the landing gear was only structured for a 2 ft. stalled landing. The plane has bicycle-style landing gear like a B-52 but the outrigger wheels on the wings drop off on takeoff so it kinda settles onto skegs on the wingtips. Seems like I read somewhere that the skegs were still wooden. The USAF used to use Ford Mustangs for chase vehicles; God only knows what they use now.

Operating speeds at altitude are highly critical. The difference between stall speed and a breakup of the fuselage is supposedly only a few knots. Wiki confirms that many pilots say it's arguably the hardest plane on the face of the Earth to fly.

Interesting plane. Interesting times.

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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they are beautiful in a gangly sort of way.

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by TrueTexan »

JohnNewell wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:36 am
highdesert wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:31 pm

Saw a U-2 years ago at a military base probably an original, they also had an SR-71 Blackbird. The U-2 was really small, I pity the pilots. In the age of satellites the latest variation of the U-2 is probably little used.
Article at Wiki is interesting. More or less confirms a few points that I heard when I worked for The Bomb Company in the 80's.

At the time the U-2 had been in production longer than any other US aircraft. They built them (according to Wiki) from 1955 thru 1989. It's roughly an F-104 Starfighter fuselage, greatly modified, so it's a pretty ancient design.

Wiki doesn't make the claim, but I was under the impression that the U-2R was acting as a battlefield repeater as well as an intelligence gathering system, so it was re-transmitting some signals that it received. That's one of the reasons that it's been in service so long.

The planes are hugely notorious to land. They require a 2nd qualified pilot to chase the plane down the runway and give the actual pilots instructions on when to literally stall the plane for a landing. Wiki says the landing gear was only structured for a 2 ft. stalled landing. The plane has bicycle-style landing gear like a B-52 but the outrigger wheels on the wings drop off on takeoff so it kinda settles onto skegs on the wingtips. Seems like I read somewhere that the skegs were still wooden. The USAF used to use Ford Mustangs for chase vehicles; God only knows what they use now.

Operating speeds at altitude are highly critical. The difference between stall speed and a breakup of the fuselage is supposedly only a few knots. Wiki confirms that many pilots say it's arguably the hardest plane on the face of the Earth to fly.

Interesting plane. Interesting times.
My Dad was in the Recon business with the 55th Strat Recon for a number of years in the 50s and early 60s. Dad was TDY in Alaska where the 55th was flying RB-47s up and down the Russian coast line triggering the Russian radars and gathering Electronic intel. the U2s were flying in the shadow of the RB-47s gathering other intel. Many times the U2s were flown by CIA pilots.

Later Dad was stationed at Ramey AFB, Puerto Rico, Just at the last part of the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was Officer of theDay when they got a radio call of a U@ having problems needing to land at Ramey. Because Dad had worked with the U2s in Alaska he was given the task of helping land the planes. they didn't have thevechles used to catch the wing tips normal used and no way to move the plane with no outriggers available. So they got two jeeps put the windshields down strapped a mattress to each hood and followed the plane as it landed when the speed dropped and the wings flexed down the jeeps moved forward and let them rest on the mattresses. They were then able to guide and tow it around into a hanger for repairs and wit for theft riggers to be flown in from the airbase at Del Rio , TX.

BTW Dad was OD the day Kennedy was in Dallas. The base went on full alert and he was sitting in the Situation War Room waiting for the orders to launch the B-52s with the hHound Dog Nuclear warheads.

Later in life I meet a retired Lt. Col. that had been a U2 pilot said it was hard to fly the plane but the long mission were really bad because you could not eat or drink due to being in a pressure suit. These pressure suits were the same ones used by the early astronauts. The worse he said was in the air to air refueling the tanker speed and the U2 stall speed were so close it was called the coffin corner.

I got to see one of the early Blackbird models when I was in Jr. High school. we were stationed at Little Rock AFB. Dad was at that time Airdrome Officer. He asked me if I wanted to see a really cool planes. I said okay so we drove down to the flight line and over by the area. He had a flight line sticker on his car. There sat the Blackbird in a roped off area with fire trucks around it and APs. Couldn't get any closer but did get to see it. Later Dad said it had an engine flame out is why it had to land. They had to have the fire trucks because the titanium skin of the plane would shrink when it cooled off and fuel would leak from the tanks. Lockheed sent the people out to repair it and later with minimum fuel took off at night to meet up with a KC-135 for fuel to get back to wherever.

It was interesting times
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by JohnNewell »

Interesting thread.

Trivia: The air base at Del Rio, Texas used to be a super secret facility. The U-2 flights over Cuba took off from there. Now it's a training base with Texan II turboprops and you can drive right by and watch the planes take off.

More trivia: If you go to the USAF museum in Dayton, OH some of the most interesting displays used to be in the Annex which was a hanger that you had to take a shuttle bus in order to see it.

The plane that carried Kennedy's body back from Dallas is/was there. The crew refused to load the coffin into the baggage space so someone took a hand saw and crudely cut the cabinetry so the coffin could be loaded into the interior; it was never repaired, no doubt intentionally. Various other Presidential planes are there. And so forth.

Anyway, I was there, probably in the early 80's, when the USAF was just beginning to admit to the SR-71 and talking about them a bit. I was shocked to see a YF-12 (forerunner to the SR-71, designed to be a very high speed intercepted) quietly moved into the Annex and on display. While looking at it I noticed a panel on the underside of the plane and pushed a nearby button just - hey - to see what the hell would happen. The panel popped open! It was some sort of external electrical hookup. The next time that I was at the Museum, incidentally, the Museum staff had wired that panel closed. :lol:

I was originally thinking that I didn't remember a U-2 being in the Air Force Museum's collection but now that I think about it a couple of decades ago I believe that it was chained to the ceiling of the Annex and you could look up and see it but not touch it.

Its been about two decades since I was last at the Museum so things may have changed around quite a bit. But if you appreciate military aircraft then a trip to the Museum is a must.

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by AndyH »

I worked with Dragon Lady during two separate assignments in the '80s and '90s. They have titanium skids on the tips now. I recall the Mustang in England. I think the chase at Osan, ROK was a GM product*. Looks like they are using Dodges in some areas now.
Two minutes to turn, Sir.

Image
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... -squadron/

*yup..Pontiac.
https://www.7af.pacaf.af.mil/News/Artic ... -on-track/
Image

Cool piece from Jalopnik on chase cars.
https://jalopnik.com/the-140-mph-chase- ... ce-5537629
Between ten and 30 people are needed to launch a U-2, and almost as many are required to land it. The procedure for bringing one down involves a chase car driven by a fellow U-2 pilot and a host of spotters in radio contact. It goes something like this:

Slow down, fly down to the deck at around 140 mph
Have chase cars drive on runway, hauling ass behind you and offering radio advice
Land plane in polite, controlled crash
Don't screw up.
Landing at Beale AFB, CA

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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That is the later versions of the U2 with the pods in the wings. My Father In Law Worked for E-Systems before he retired and would have to go to their Greenville plant and do work on highly classified planes sitting on a runway that didn't exist. All the pictures of that plant from E-Systems just shows a pasture where the runway is located. He also had to make trips to Offutt AFB for work on the 55th wings RC-135s. I don't what he did except it was in electronics and his E-Systems badge said Electronic Warfare.
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by senorgrand »

to the op, maybe Chinese fishermen are finding so many drones is because they fish in disputed and/or foreign waters?
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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TrueTexan wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:03 pm
That is the later versions of the U2 with the pods in the wings. My Father In Law Worked for E-Systems before he retired and would have to go to their Greenville plant and do work on highly classified planes sitting on a runway that didn't exist. All the pictures of that plant from E-Systems just shows a pasture where the runway is located. He also had to make trips to Offutt AFB for work on the 55th wings RC-135s. I don't what he did except it was in electronics and his E-Systems badge said Electronic Warfare.
The optical sensors and side-looking radar are in the nose, so the bird didn't need pods for purely photo missions. Everything I worked with flew with superpods as that's where the SIGINT/ELINT and C3CM stuff is. There really aren't early or later versions of the airframe, except for engine upgrades. The superpods, extended "ASARS Nose", etc. could be installed into all of the birds, apparently. The only real difference between the U2Rs I last worked with in the '90s and the current U2S model is a new engine.

Note that in the vid I posted, the bird doesn't have pods. It's a two-seat trainer so doesn't have mission equipment installed.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/u2/
Last edited by AndyH on Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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senorgrand wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:20 pm
to the op, maybe Chinese fishermen are finding so many drones is because they fish in disputed and/or foreign waters?
..and because there are a lot of drones in the water?

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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the breadth and depth of experience here... you guys are awesome.

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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AndyH wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:57 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:03 pm
That is the later versions of the U2 with the pods in the wings. My Father In Law Worked for E-Systems before he retired and would have to go to their Greenville plant and do work on highly classified planes sitting on a runway that didn't exist. All the pictures of that plant from E-Systems just shows a pasture where the runway is located. He also had to make trips to Offutt AFB for work on the 55th wings RC-135s. I don't what he did except it was in electronics and his E-Systems badge said Electronic Warfare.
The optical sensors and side-looking radar are in the nose, so the bird didn't need pods for purely photo missions. Everything I worked with flew with superpods as that's where the SIGINT/ELINT and C3CM stuff is. There really aren't early or later versions of the airframe, except for engine upgrades. The superpods, extended "ASARS Nose", etc. could be installed into all of the birds, apparently. The only real difference between the U2Rs I last worked with in the '90s and the current U2S model is a new engine.

Note that in the vid I posted, the bird doesn't have pods. It's a two-seat trainer so doesn't have mission equipment installed.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/u2/
So those pods are like the one used on the RB-47 when Dad was in the 55th. and later used on the RB-58 in Thailand during the Vietnam War for high speed low level recon. Dad had orders for Thailand when he was medically retired.
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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AndyH wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:57 pm
senorgrand wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:20 pm
to the op, maybe Chinese fishermen are finding so many drones is because they fish in disputed and/or foreign waters?
..and because there are a lot of drones in the water?
I expect many "drones" are probably scientific in nature (NOAA and the like). Although the various navies probably a lot of robots under the waves too.
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by AndyH »

senorgrand wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:17 pm
AndyH wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:57 pm
senorgrand wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:20 pm
to the op, maybe Chinese fishermen are finding so many drones is because they fish in disputed and/or foreign waters?
..and because there are a lot of drones in the water?
I expect many "drones" are probably scientific in nature (NOAA and the like). Although the various navies probably a lot of robots under the waves too.
No doubt! So...Google brought this:

https://www.newamerica.org/internationa ... me-drones/
When the Houthi rebels in Yemen first used maritime drones in January 2017, the assault on a Saudi frigate highlighted the little-known development of sea-capable semi-autonomous weapons.
The U.S. Navy sees maritime drones as a key part of the Third Offset strategy, which seeks to leverage next-generation technologies against America’s adversaries. Unmanned Underwater Vehicles (UUVs) enable the creation of an underwater intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance network that mirrors U.S. aerial and land-based networks. According to a 2016 DoD report entitled “Autonomous Undersea Vehicle Requirement for 2025,” Submarine based UUVs will be used to extend the effective range of the host submarine’s sensors and weaponry. These drones will be used to carry out missions considered too dangerous for crewed vehicles, like mine countermeasures, and to serve as decoys to disguise the locations of manned submarines.
The British Royal Navy shares the United States’ interest in maritime drones. The United States and United Kingdom staged the first Unmanned Warrior exercise in Scotland in October 2016, where drones from different countries were networked together to work as a unit.
That's just from the first page. Geeze - there's a ton happening that I had no idea about! (Ok, you can laugh at that with me. :lol: )

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by JohnNewell »

senorgrand wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:17 pm
AndyH wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:57 pm
senorgrand wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:20 pm
to the op, maybe Chinese fishermen are finding so many drones is because they fish in disputed and/or foreign waters?
..and because there are a lot of drones in the water?
I expect many "drones" are probably scientific in nature (NOAA and the like). Although the various navies probably a lot of robots under the waves too.

51 ft. drone with a range of 6,500 miles. The Boeing Orca. The Feds have ordered 5 of them. https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... es-boeing/

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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

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TR-1A, later renamed the U-2S. Wiki just dryly says it has enhanced "ECM capabilities" but I remember reading (Aviation Week and Space Technology maybe?) at the time that they could orbit a battlefield at a safe altitude and intercept signals and re-transmit them to a ground station. Note the antenna on the dorsal spine. I got the impression that that they were listening for both the bad guy's radio transmissions as well as possibly the good guy's weak and clandestine signals. Extra spooky stuff.
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by AndyH »

JohnNewell wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:14 am
TR-1A, later renamed the U-2S. Wiki just dryly says it has enhanced "ECM capabilities" but I remember reading (Aviation Week and Space Technology maybe?) at the time that they could orbit a battlefield at a safe altitude and intercept signals and re-transmit them to a ground station. Note the antenna on the dorsal spine. I got the impression that that they were listening for both the bad guy's radio transmissions as well as possibly the good guy's weak and clandestine signals. Extra spooky stuff.
The TR1 program was a renamed U2R, at least initially. The U2s that used to surveil the Soviet Union flew from RAF Alconbury, England and there was a public outcry to get the spyplane out of the country. The MOD and DoD made a public show of returning the U2s to the 'States. Shortly thereafter, they flew a couple of TR1s back...er...over to Alconbury to continue the mission through the end of the Cold War.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 85189.html
https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/n ... nt-3362366


The antenna on the spine was for the Senior Span upgrade, which gave the airplane satellite relay capability. Prior to Senior Span, the airplane had to be within line of sight of a ground site to relay information, or had to store data for processing after landing.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/s ... r_span.htm

More here in a cool NASA history:
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... rizons.pdf

CIA Docs - the U2 program, and a flight manual.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... /index.htm
Direct PDF Link: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... 974/u2.pdf
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 0005729692
Direct PDF Link: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 729692.pdf

ETA...Without pictures it didn't happen ;)

The U2 Evolution image is from "U-2 Spyplane in action", Squadron/Signal Publications, Aircraft No. 86, 1988. The Senior Span upgrade came later.
https://www.amazon.com/U-2-Spyplane-Act ... 897472020/
Of course, all of this could be wrong, because "military intelligence". :lol:
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JohnNewell
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by JohnNewell »

AndyH wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:42 am
The U2s that used to surveil the Soviet Union flew from RAF Alconbury, England and there was a public outcry to get the spyplane out of the country.

Gary Francis Powers took off from Peshawar, Pakistan before he was shot down over Russia.

I enjoyed your analysis btw. And like you said - "military intelligence". We will probably never know the entire story of the U-2.

AndyH
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by AndyH »

JohnNewell wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:20 pm
AndyH wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:42 am
The U2s that used to surveil the Soviet Union flew from RAF Alconbury, England and there was a public outcry to get the spyplane out of the country.
Gary Francis Powers took off from Peshawar, Pakistan before he was shot down over Russia.

I enjoyed your analysis btw. And like you said - "military intelligence". We will probably never know the entire story of the U-2.
Yes, Peshawar. Other flew out of Turkey. They all forward-deployed from the UK, and they got there by deploying from the US.

The entire story? More is being declassified every year (see the docs I linked). Until then, we're left with available open-source info.

AndyH
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by AndyH »

Good stuff!


AndyH
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Re: "Why are Chinese fishermen finding so many 'submarine spies'?"

Post by AndyH »

An overview with good footage/imagery


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